Comment by Workaccount2
16 days ago
>I don't think they're explicitly a CCP data-collection front
In China you cannot not be explicitly a CCP data-collection front.
China doesn't bring evidence to a judge in order to get a subpoena for data. They just go to DJI an get it. DJI has zero legal recourse if the CCP wants access to all DJI's stored data. Doesn't matter where that data is stored. Same thing for tiktok and why legislators are killing that too. You're a Chinese company? You ultimately work for the state. No discussion.
China is not the US. People need to stop fitting the way things work in the US to the way things work in China.
Edit: For the whataboutists: Yes, everyone is aware that american three letter agencies have backdoor access to every computer, broken RSA and AES, and control the USA's puppet government. Thanks.
To start: I do not trust the CCP, but my trust in the American legal system has been waning.
What's the legal recourse for a US Citizen served with a dodgy FISA-related subpoena/warrant?
Or if a government agency wants to purchase tracking data that includes my phone from a data collection agency? Say the state of Texas purchases geotracking data for app users who cross state lines.
Apple famously told the FBI to go pound sand when asked to help access an iPhone in an actual terrorism case (i.e. it wasn't about going after dissidents or journalists or anything), even though such help was definitely within Apple's technical power.
Now, while admitting that I am no way claiming the US is perfect, does anyone actually think something even remotely similar would ever happen between a Chinese company and the Chinese government?
There is a good book on the American surveillance apparatus Means of Control by Byron Tau. People are a lot more watched than they think.
The Apple example is well-known because it is an exception. Much more common is not only compliance but making an entire business out of selling private data to the government.
https://theintercept.com/2022/04/22/anomaly-six-phone-tracki...
It really doesn’t matter that China is worse. It’s not a competition. The fact that people in other places have even less privacy doesn’t make me feel better.
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> Now, while admitting that I am no way claiming the US is perfect, does anyone actually think something even remotely similar would ever happen between a Chinese company and the Chinese government?
Yes. We've seen the back and forth with e.g. Jack Ma. It doesn't happen as publicly because it's not such good marketing in China, but of course it happens.
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Apple famously positively answers 80% of all government data requests. No idea why people think Apple is somehow special with your privacy, it isn't.
Ex. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1412550/apple-share-user...
They sure did! They also (was it around that time? I forget...) pushed pretty hard for everything to be stored in iCloud, where coincidentally it's not protected by any of the on-device security and can (as I understand it) be legally requisitioned by the authorities. Happy to be corrected (with sources) if I'm wrong here but otherwise this seems very much on par.
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Chinese companies are the government heh
Whatever slim you want to think your recourse is in the US, it is FAR better and broader than in the country that has uncounted mobile execution vans with zero available records of who is executed.
At least the US is trying to be a democracy, and has largely functioning checks and balances.
CCP is flat-out 'you cannot even talk or access information on things that make us look bad, such as Tibet or Tiananmen Protests' and 'make the wrong criticism at the wrong time and it is over for you'.
There is a MASSIVE difference. Playing false equivalence games will end very badly.
> Playing false equivalence games will end very badly.
Okay: Chinese report higher satisfaction with their government and the direction their country is headed in than virtually any Western nation and much more than in the US. The Chinese economy is doing the opposite of enshittification, whereas the US is openly embracing the trend at this point with inflation / capital strikes, shrinkflation, consolidation, rent-seeking, and overall lower quality of goods and services. The home ownership rate in China is about 90%. Real wages in China are steadily rising and have been for decades - in the US they are falling and have done for decades.
America's primary means of diplomatic leverage is military domination but it can't even prevent the Houthis from a virtual blockade of the Red Sea and sea traffic through there has dropped 90%. Meanwhile China is transforming entire continents with its superior industrial capacity and soft power. They are the world leader in clean energy research and production. They got kicked out of the International Space Station so they built a better one and left an open invitation to the nations that kicked them out of the ISS, to join them on the Tiangong Space Station after they come to their senses.
China has already won. Chinese socialism, won. If there is a positive future for humanity at this point, it is in China and China alone. The West is still coming to grips with this. Posts like yours are transparently cope.
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> my trust in the American legal system has been waning.
Why? We just watched a former POTUS and the current POTUS's son get convicted of felonies in courts with juries. Is there a better test of the legal system?
Yikes, you must not have been following the cases or know the laws very well if that’s your takeaway from those.
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do you think that national security warrants and subpoenas actually stand up to evidentiary claims? it’s not like the US actually cares and does the right thing— it’s just force hidden behind “process”
> China doesn't bring evidence to a judge in order to get a subpoena for data
Do you think that e.g. FISA courts or the CIA kidnapping random civilians based on their name/watch type have a high threshold of evidence?
> China doesn't bring evidence to a judge in order to get a subpoena for data. They just go to DJI a get it. DJI has zero legal recourse if the CCP wants access to all DJI's stored data. Doesn't matter where that data is stored.
Is this an assumption or do you have first-hand knowledge of how this works operationally, in practice?
I remember reading somewhere that all large companies in China are effectively state-owned, they basically always have a CCP member of the party on their board, which even the CEO is beholden to.
> In China you cannot not be explicitly a CCP data-collection front
Unintelligible.
Rewrite as “in China it’s very hard to avoid turning over data to the CCP.”
It's a written rebuttal mirroring the original wording. This is a common writing and debate style; please don't ask people to rewrite their posts when it is fairly clear what they meant¡
> China is not the US
Not a very good comparison in terms of the state forcing companies to give out their customers' data...
Also love how, in your opinion, anyone pointing this out must of course be a conspiracy nut.
> For the whataboutists: Yes, everyone is aware that american three letter agencies have backdoor access to every computer, broken RSA and AES, and control the USA's puppet government. Thanks.
You're deliberately overstating the issue, to the point of absurdity, to avoid legitimate criticism. Three-letter agencies do have a high level of access to this data, and in many cases that's because the companies involved just voluntarily hand it over (no need to get the courts involved). Even when the courts do get involved, these are secret courts where the decisions are classified, and in any case from what we do know they act as a rubber stamp anyway.
So, this is a matter of the US wanting access to that data in addition to, or possibly exclusive from, the CCP. Frankly, as I'm not currently under the jurisdiction of the Communist Party of China, I'd prefer they have unlimited access to that data as opposed to the US government, if I have to choose one or the other.
Ahaha, as opposed to the US where... 3-letter agencies don't bring evidence to a judge, they just go to google/meta to get it.
Pointing out obvious bad-faith hypocrisy is actually called "whataboutism", you're doing a hecking fallacy!!
This is absolutely a false equivalence.
Google and Meta choose to give the government all sorts of data that they're not required by law to give, because they don't see it as worthwhile to go to bat for their users. You can choose to use a vendor who will protect your privacy and demand full due process on the part of government requestors.
In China there is no due process and no choice of vendors who would demand it, even if they could.