Comment by troad
15 days ago
> I feel like I must be missing something here. What?
If I were to hazard a guess at what the original poster was getting at, it might be the culture of those languages, combined with the power of Lisp to redefine its own syntax.
Lispers value concision, love higher-order functions, and love wrapping things in other things to reuse code, so you might easily see a non-trivial stretch of code without a single function call you recognise. Imagine code where the smallest chunk look something like (dq red foo '(hat n (ddl m) f)). There could be anywhere between zero and eight functions in that snippet, or any one of those might be a macro which re-orders the others in any way (or perhaps its parents include a macro, in which case you really can't assume anything about how / if this stretch is executed at all), it could be a wrapper around something that in other languages would need to be an operator (perhaps it's an if statement?), etc etc.
It's absolutely true you can shoot yourself in the foot in any language, but Lisp is unusually good for it. It's part of its power, but that power comes with a cost. Imagine talking with someone that had a proclivity for making up words. In small doses, this might be fun and save time. In larger doses, you begin losing the thread of the conversation. Lisp is sorta like that. It might seem flammorous, but before you prac it grombles, and you plink trooble blamador!
> Imagine talking with someone that had a proclivity for making up words.
All software is written by making up new words. The bigger the software, the more words.
> you can shoot yourself in the foot in any language, but Lisp is unusually good for it
I've never shot myself in the foot writing Lisp, and have not heard any anecdotes about it. (Well, maybe the one about Cycorp's Cyc decades old code base being large and inscrutable.)
You're making shit up.
> I've never shot myself in the foot writing Lisp, and have not heard any anecdotes about it. (Well, maybe the one about Cycorp's Cyc decades old code base being large and inscrutable.)
> You're making shit up.
An unnecessarily abrasive way of saying you disagree, no? Your own lived experience doesn't match mine, and therefore I must be lying? You're being irrational and mean spirited.
Lisp can't at the same time be uniquely powerful, but also no different to any other language. Lisp is a uniquely flexible language, which is one of its main strengths. Uniquely flexible languages impose a cost for readability and collaboration. You're free to disagree and insult me further, but I think this is self-apparent. Lisp's flexibility makes it a great lone wolf language (well, if you neither want access to a majority of libraries nor closeness to bare metal, which is a bit of an odd middle ground for a lone wolf), but it's awkward in organisations and collaborative contexts, where other, less flexible languages have generally overtaken it.
> Lisp can't at the same time be uniquely powerful, but also no different to any other language
There are lots of programming languages which are "uniquely powerful": C++, Prolog, Haskell, ...
> Lisp is a uniquely flexible language
I'm not sure if I buy "uniquely", but "very" would be fine.
> Uniquely flexible languages impose a cost for readability and collaboration.
At the same time it provides also important features for readability and collaboration. There are code bases of complex Lisp software, which are maintained by small&changing teams for several decades.
Lisp is effective not so much for "lone wolfs", but for small teams (5 to 100 people) working in a shared infrastructure with larger groups. Example: SBCL is a complex Common Lisp implementation, which goes back to the early 80s (-> Spice Lisp). SBCL is maintained by a group of people and has monthly releases. Around it there is an eco-system of software.
Simpler Lisp dialects can also be effective for larger groups. For example there are many people using "AutoLisp" (or versions of it), a simple Lisp dialect for scripting AutoCAD (and various competitors).
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> awkward in organisations and collaborative contexts
Name three concrete anecdotes with organization names, projects and timelines.
Any language can be a "lone wolf" language. People have collaborated in making very large, well-documented projects in C. They have also made things like this:
https://www.ioccc.org/2001/herrmann2.c
a random-dot-stereogram-generating program whose source is a random-dot stereogram.
A language that doesn't let you be a Lone Wolf if you are so inclined is something that is not designed for grown ups, and not worth using if it has any alternatives at all in its space.
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